We need to get some form of turret press for punching chassis holes and cutting them out of a sheet, for prototyping. It is pretty likely that we will want more than one piece if we like the proto. We want accuracy, similar to any sheet metal punching operation, as we will be checking fits with the protos. They will be run CNC somewhere after we approve protos. Probably the usual 0.005 on location or thereabouts, Better is good, looser is not so good.
Rounds up to 3' or so, obrounds, long obrounds, rectangles, Double-D, etc, and punches used to cut the outline. Bigger holes we can nibble, most likely. Chassis size unfolded to 30' x 24' or so. High tech isn't required, but would be nice. Actually, we could probably use one of the old type template followers, if we could also use it to generate the templates.
I do recall many years ago, Behrens turret punches that had scales to locate holes when making templates, which were then run on DiAcro template followers, IIRC. Those were in use when I started designing sheet metal parts. But I haven't seen one of either in years, so I probably recall them wrongly. I don't recall if the Behrens would also do template following, seems I recall they would. The old-time scales on such a machine likely could be updated with DROs.
Of course, direct from Pro-E to CAM would be fine too, but we do not have room, nor need, nor budget for a full newer CNC turret press. An older one is problematic, due to the usual problems with older electronics. I don't know of conversions, nor of middle-sized ones. Non-turret CNC is dubious, as nibbling every hole gives a rotten finish compared to a punch. Laser would be nice, but $$$$$ to run and buy. We for several reasons need to cut loose from our current prototype house.
Response time, pricing, and interest are starting to be a problem with them. And the other guys in town are real budget killers.
Any suggestions on machines? Yes, we have a shop and a sharp shop guy who would run it, and do punch and die maintenance. 13' SB, CNC Bridgeport, DP, welders, press brake, shear, etc. Years ago my partner and I started out with a Wiedelmann R41P I think, kinda like the Diacro you mentioned, great for prototyping work, good for up to a hundred parts with a good operater, after that, need a CNC.
Forget the biggest die station, but you have a BPT CNC to do that on. They are hard to find but usually cheap and tooling from Mate is avalable. We used to do a layup on either 0.090 or 0.125 mild steel on a surface plate and centerpunch the centers of the punch that was gonna do the job and use a cheap deep throat kick press with a titted 0.125 punch or a drill press for the stylees pin. You wouldn't believe the fine metal work that came off that macine. Easy to do + or - 0.005 tolerance on sheet metal. Plasma torch isn't good enough.Laser is.
Dunno about waterjet. We want the holes to be correct size within punch tolerances of a few thou. I didn't think waterjet or plasma would do that. I know laser will, our present vendor does laser. I didn't mention gage, generally 16 gage and up to maybe 22 ga steel or aluminum. A very few parts 11 ga steel or equivalent in aluminum.
Weidemann.I forgot about them. And they are still in biz, I think. But those are only tracers, right?
That would explain the layout and titted punch routine. The Behrens had scales or actually things like a Trav-A-dial for X and Y, so you could make the template easier than with a layout and tit punch. That's what we'd prefer, if going that direction, since errors are harder to make.
I cant agree about cnc plasma- cheap plasma wont give you the kind of accuracy and hole quality you seem to be wanting, and isnt that cheap anyway- the cost of a real cnc plasma machine is equivalent to a cnc turret punch. And the old style pattern follower machines- well, they are out there, but that is REALLY OLD tech- like try 50 years old. It doesnt sound like you want to maintain a 50 year old machine.
But if you did, there are a whole lot of old strippit 30/30's out there, and they dont cost too much. The early NC duplicator punches were pretty much dogs, which is why nobody uses them anymore, and they are dirt cheap when you find them used.
But no fun to use. Which leaves you with modern technology, which is not cheap. I am not aware of a small cheap turret punch- if you find one, post it, I might want one.
Industry leaders in real cnc turret punches are: Strippit/LVD Trumpf Finn-Power W.A. Whitney Amada and of course, there are tons and tons of used machines out there. Well, used and reasonable to use is what we are after.
Strippit is another one from old days. Never used any of them, but saw them and chassis for my stuff was made on them also. We are not 'specifying' any particlar approach.because we could be OK with 50 year old tracer stuff for 5 or 10 pieces max in a run of protos. Averaged over the year, we'd be way under its production capacity. Surge capacity, that's anotehr deal.
But once the template is right, then its turret setup and a relatively fast cycle. Setup is a consideration. We can't have something that takes a layout man a long time, as we may have a bunch of layouts to do prior to a show, and we won't have lots of time. Hence the DRO on the Behrens idea. I don't see the tit punch cutting it. But it may be that we need only one new layout or maybe nothing for 2 weeks at other times, so we really can't justify a big cnc setup.
If we could do the laser that would be really ideal. But again, its expensive to buy and run, and our needs are not for enough to keep it busy that much. Good side is that setup is almost nil, and tooling is cheap (consumables aren't though). All in all, I think older template machines are probably fine, if we can generate the template on teh same machine. We can probably get a good deal on punches for them.
At one time we could have bought a behrens AND all the punches for OUR products, but the suits turned it down.it was from our current vendor.I think they scrapped it. Sounds like you may be better off finding a betty vendor to handle this with an up to date machine. I have had work like this turned overnight with cad files emailed to the shop. Advantage is you know that the part conforms to the cad file and visa versa when you go to make more. I am told that 'the decision has been made' to pull it in-house, and that that isn't up for debate.I'm sure you have heard that sort of thing.
I've been on the customer end for 25 years around here. The other folks are so high it doesn't even matter. And response time for low volume protos is just not worth talking about. Any place that isn't local and reachable is not worth the effort.
I think all the 11Ga pieces would all fit on the CNC B'port, so that may not be a problem. I'd say we can consider just 16 ga and up, steel and aluminum. Thor is a new one on me. Any source of info? I didn't find anything useful. Googling 'thor' with 'punch' or 'turret' turned up some pure punch-only machines, no table, no tracer, no nothing, tit-tooling only for location.
(and several billion comic book references.) Also Thor tools, making punch and die sets. But no actual machinery of the type I expected.
I strongly suggest to look at Whitney. They are one of few manufacturers that has a complete punching line. If you want to go cheap, then look at their portable press line, the next step is their fabercator line, further up the ladder is their 3400 punch/plasma system, and of course on the top end is their laser offering.
They are the few manufactures that have a punching machine to fit your budget/production needs. Whitney is now owned by the same people that own Pariah metal workers, which would give you another line of lower priced machines. We've got a Wiedemann RA41P. Largest punch we have is 3', but I think you can get them a bit larger. Ours has 20 stations.
The machine is rated at 15 tons, so you can look at a table and see what max thickness you can punch for a given material and hole diameter. The Max sheet size is 28x40, and the throat is 28' deep. TMC Corp in Phoenixville, PA still makes replacement parts for them. The one we have cannot directly make its own templates, but according to the original literature that was an option, so I assume there are some around that can.
We bought the one we have about 12-14 years ago with probably 200 assorted punch/die sets for about $3000. They're a pretty simple machine in that there's a crank on the front to rotate the turret and of course you just move the stylus to the template holes and pull the trigger. For what you're wanting to do it would seem to be the ideal machine, particularly if you could find one with the template making attachment. The way they're set up it would also be real easy to add a couple screws and motors to the carriage assembly and run one off a PC with Mach2 or similar software and do away with the template making. Would get more complex if you were wanting to cnc the turret index, but real simple to move to place and trigger the press via CNC, with a pause in the program when the operator needs to manually index the turret to the next position. Criticare 506dxn manual. As far as new CNC punches are concerned, I saw a small one that was sorta rinky-dink looking at a trade show a couple years ago, supposedly aimed at the prototype market. Single tool station and a pricetag of about $25K Most anything out there with a full indexing turret will be well in excess of $100K.
The 30/30 Strippits and the Pierce-Alls most always have micrometer scales so you can use them for template making or for single parts, but they're single station machines so they'd be a little slow on blanks with a lot of different hole sizes. The new CNC plasma cutters will get into the less than.005' range. About $80-100K for the high end stuff.
Most people have trouble running aluminum on lasers. Water jet is usually faster on aluminum than laser. The newer water jets are pretty good and can be more flexible than lasers, plasma, or punching. The better stuff is in the $125-$150 range. CNC turret presses are extremely fast, accurate, and exspensive. Amada, Weideman, Trumpf, and Salvagnini are all good machines.
You'd better have a fairly new machine if you want to hold 0.005'. Don't forget tooling! You can spend $50K on turret tooling without batting an eye. Then there's clutch maintenance, ball screw, etc. IMHO, I would lean to waterjet for the prototype operation. They are just out of your area, but check these guys out They have new and used. Look at the Calypso waterjet systems and Mazak laser.
Most any of the template punches capable of making their own templates have screws for fine adjustment of the hole positions. On the Wiedemann without the template attachment the stylus moves on a set of orthogonal roller guide axes, so the addition of a DRO would allow you to know the position, but you'd basically have to bump it into final position manually since there's no positive means of final adjustment. Once you got it into position you'd either have to trip the punch via the hand trigger on the stylus or have a separate switch to trip it. If you touched it, it would most likely move. IMO, attempting to get to the locations like this would not make for a good system from either a productivity or an accuracy standpoint.
There are mechanical locks on the stylus axes, but it would be difficult to engage them without moving the stylus a bit during the locking process. Since you plan to nibble out the overall shape as well as punching the openings, the template is going to have a bunch of holes and be time consuming to produce even if you do find a machine capable of producing its own templates. Templates themselves generally need to be a minimum of 11ga, and most machines are set up for 1/4' template holes. If the budget is tight but they're determined to bring it in house, I think you'd be ahead by CNC'inc the axis movements of an older turret machine as opposed to retrofitting an adjustment mechanism and a DRO.
You'd eliminate the compound inaccuracies inherent in producing the template and subsequently producing parts from that template. Also, on parts with a lot of punched locations, one of the manual machines will wear your ass ragged in short order. I've made runs of 50 to 100 parts on ours infrequently, and while the in and out movements aren't bad, the side to side movements are a killer on your shoulders and upper back. I promise you the guy standing in front of the machine with his hand on the stylus and a smile on his face in the old ads for these machines had never run many parts on one of these critters, otherwise that smile would have been long gone There's a definite downward slope in a plot of productivity vs time with one of the manual machines, and its a legitimate combination of absolute boredom and back-breaking labor. Within a tight budget I don't see any real options that would include new machines unless the company decided to bring the production runs in house as well. On a production basis I'd imagine an Amada or similar machine with a high definition plasma in one tool station for outline blanking and for oddball openings would be the most productive solution, but then you're looking at a cost in the 250K to 300K range. Having watched most types of punching operations, let me say turrett setups are nice (Strippit, Amada), however, they do have at least moderate setup times, unless you have standardized tooling that doesn't change.
Turret Punch Press Jobs
If you make only a few different layouts that are not overly complex, I wonder if the old fashioned way of doing things would be less costly. That is, using a flatbed punch press with work area of 3'x 6' or so. Bolt in tooling made by Strippit (I think) or others and a template made in house or outside. The machine cost will be far lower, as will be tooling cost. When its set up, one part can be produced with one cycle of the machine in most cases. If you choose, die sets can be made to incorporate all tooling for very quick setups, but tool cost will be initally higher. There is nothing faster than one finished part per cycle of the machine.
Metlmunchr: I hear you on the movements and workout. Luckily, our likely useage is to make one piece, then eventually when that one is perfected, make possibly up to 10 identical pieces (for trade shows, factory samples, etc). Nibbling outside has traditionally been done with long rectangle punches, so it's not that many hits. With a standardized template made up front the original template can be either modified, or another made off of it with modifications as needed. Easier to do that than do every one off the DRO. I doubt if any CNC would pay off effectively.
But, as you mentioned, I am surely worried about the setup. Not the punch set, we tend to use most of the same sizes. But the making of the template up front would be a pain. We looked at CNC nibbler machines also. I am concerned about hole quality, though.
We have control shafts going thru holes, and a rough hole is gonna stink on a show sample. But we might get away with that anyhow, even if it does work the small punch to death quick. We are getting away from that construction. Gvasale: Speed of production of parts, meaning the actual punching, isn't important, really. Speed of setup.could. be. Speed of repeating same part is definitely a plus.
I don't mean the speed with which it is punched, but the total time involved from saying 'I need 10 more just like sample #5' to when they are all punched. Obviously, the actual punching time is likely less than the setup. Tool cost would murder us on that, since we may have 5 or 6 very different chassis active at any given time. Also we may need a couple more made a month later, for some reason, possibly to verify a change. Anything where we need to disassemble a setup of bolt-in punches would be unthinkable, but keeping even several dozen templates is no big deal.
Obviously keeping some CNC files is even less trouble. We are a development outfit, and these are for protos. So costs within reason are OK, so long as we can get parts in a reasonable time.
That 'reasonable' is what keeps pushing at the CNC idea. Setup is always a killer, except on CNC. That is exactly why that nasty old-tech (tech? That's tech?) tracer machines seem like the best compromise of time in setup vs first cost. Yes, more work to set up, although some of that can be assisted by drafting, setting up punches off a list for de-paneling, etc.
But, repeats are.easy. And with a sensible number of punches in the turret, and a lot of common sizes, may not be so bad to set up for more of a part that has been done. Our vendor used to do that 20 years ago, for production. I guess we can stand it. I can virtually guarantee they won't want to do $105K plus consumables. But I have been wrong before.
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